0:01
Welcome to today's webinar, which is on the Employment Rights Bill, looking into the key impacts and employee relations and workforce strategy, which is being presented by our professional affiliate members, Marsh McLennan.
0:13
First of all, thank you to everyone for coming today. We hope that you find the content useful.
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There will be a Q &A at the end, so please put any questions that you have into the question spots and we'll do our best to go through as many as we can at the end of the webinar.
0:26
Following the webinar, we'll be sending you an aftercare email in the next couple of working days, and this will contain a recording of the webinar and the contact details of today's presenters.
0:36
So, without any further ado, I'll hand you over to the moderator for today's session, Lee. Thank you, Luke. Good morning, everybody.
0:44
It's a pleasure to welcome you to our Employee Rights Bill webinar.
0:47
You've probably seen a few webinars on this bill, but this one specifically is related to trained union rights and collective bargaining.
0:54
As Luke said, my name is Lee Stanger and I'm the food and beverage industry leader at Mercer Marsh Benefits and I'll be your host for today's webinar.
1:04
A little bit of housekeeping just to add to what Luke said at the beginning.
1:07
So the webinar is scheduled for 45 minutes to an hour, depending on how Q &A goes.
1:13
We really do welcome questions from yourselves and you can submit them to us and our panellists by typing them into the window at the bottom of your screen.
1:22
We do also have some poll questions at the end of the webinar, and we'd really appreciate your participation within those, so please stick around to answer those.
1:33
So let me introduce our panel of experts who are joining us today.
1:37
So firstly, we have Madeleine Kelly, who is the co-founder of Integrity Conflict Solutions.
1:43
Madeleine is a lawyer with 30 years' experience of advising businesses on the risks and management of conflict.
1:50
Now as a co-founder of Integrity Conflict Solutions, she combines her experience as a lawyer and as a mediator to help clients navigate difficult conversations, build and maintain excellent relationships with their stakeholders, and mediate through challenging disputes.
2:06
We have Lisa Truitt. Lisa is a principal consultant in Mercer's Reward and Talent team in London.
2:13
She's worked in reward for over 20 years in both consulting and in-house roles across general and executive reward.
2:22
Lisa comes from a research background and has a PhD in industrial relations, which focused on employee involvement in power sharing organisations.
2:34
She has a direct and varied experience of working with clients in unionised environments and was also a trade union rep for the NUJ for five years.
2:45
We also have Richard.
2:47
Richard is a partner at Capital Law, has over 25 years experience, both in-house and private practice, advising on contentious and non-contentious employment and data protection law.
3:00
Richard provides strategic advice on collective employee consultation duties and obligations arising out of company restructures, acquisitions, mergers collective redundancies and outsourcing and this work includes informing, consulting and negotiating with trade unions to avoid legal claims and industrial action as well as the application of 2B.
3:25
Tanya Barringer is the Industry Growth Practice Manager for the Food and Drink Federation where she leads on employment policy including the employment rights bill, immigration and skills.
3:38
Her work also spans innovation, automation and AI adoption and promoting supply chain fairness across the UK's food and drink manufacturing sector. Welcome everybody.
3:51
So before I hand over to our panel today, let me quickly set the scene for us.
3:57
So I think we are all aware that the new UK Employee Rights Bill reflects a significant shift in the landscape of workers' rights within the UK.
4:07
A few months ago now, MRSA conducted a pulse survey amongst HR professionals to understand the awareness of these provisions and the level of support and readiness to act once the bill is enacted into law.
4:21
These responses revealed an apprehension regarding the changes, which suggests a lack of familiarity with these rules and the potential implications these changes may have on workplace relations.
4:37
So today, our experts are going to cover a couple of themes for us, including but not limited to key elements in the Employee Rights Bill relating to trade unions and collective bargaining. The impact on employee relations.
4:53
We will also discuss collective bargaining and trade union strategy, and importantly, what food and beverage operators should be doing now to prepare for these changes.
5:05
I mentioned at the very beginning that poll questions will be asked of you all at the end and please do submit questions as we go through this.
5:14
We will allow time at the end to answer those and if we don't get to them all within the follow-up we will answer the questions that we're unable to address within this session.
5:25
So I'm going to stop speaking for a little bit and open up to our panellists on this really important topic.
5:32
And Richard and Tonya, I'd like to come to you first if possible.
5:35
And I wonder if you'd be kind enough to outline the provisions contained within the new bill. Thanks Lee, good morning everyone.
5:44
Yes, as Lee mentioned, this is the Employment Rights Bill is the most significant piece of employment legislation for the last 25 years, it's going to make significant changes to both individual and collective employment rights.
5:57
I'm going to focus on three areas today on this webinar.
6:01
The first being the trade union recognition process and the simplification of that.
6:06
The second being trade union rights of access to the workplace, including digital access.
6:13
And then the final one being the duty on employers to inform workers of their right to join a trade union.
6:21
So dealing with the first one, the trade union recognition process, the government is going to consult on simplifying that trade union recognition process.
6:31
That consultation should be published fairly shortly and it will be implemented, i.e. it will be law in April next year, April 2026.
6:40
So the current position is, well what is trade union recognition?
6:44
Well, it's simply a formal acknowledgement by an employer that a particular trade union represents a significant proportion of the workforce and recognition then takes place if the union actively seeks that.
7:00
So there is no automatic right to recognition, it has to be actively sought by the trade union.
7:06
When recognition takes place, it's usually what's known as collective bargaining.
7:10
That's essentially negotiating with the employer on things like pay hours of holidays and also being consulted on a variety of issues affecting the business as a whole.
7:24
Now trade union recognition can be sought by the trade union one of two ways at the moment.
7:28
Voluntary recognition is simply where the trade union says well look the majority of your workforce are our members so we'd like to be recognized please would you agree to go through a voluntary process which is where the employer and the trade union sit down and work out a voluntary agreement which is then put in place and implemented.
7:49
If however the employer refuses to consider voluntary recognition the union can apply through a government tribunal route which is known as the central arbitration committee.
8:00
Now the union has to do a number of hurdles or overcome a number of hurdles to do this.
8:04
It needs to demonstrate, first of all, that it has 10% of the bargaining units.
8:09
It also needs to demonstrate that a majority of workers in that particular bargaining unit, which could be at the heart of the workforce, could be the whole of the workforce, but a majority of the workers would like to, would want recognition.
8:23
And it needs to do that by way of workforce petitions and evidence that essentially, that the majority of the workforce would want recognition.
8:33
At that point, then, the central arbitration committee can order a recognition ballot and the current rules are that at least 40% of that workforce needs to participate in the ballot for that ballot to be valid.
8:47
The changes now under the new employment relations bill are going to sweep virtually all of that away.
8:53
So it's going to simplify the recognition procedure significantly.
8:57
So the requirement that the union needs to show evidence of support for recognition will go.
9:03
The requirement that any ballot needs to have at least 40% of the workforce voted in it to be valid will go.
9:12
What will remain under the simplified approach is simply the union demonstrates we have 10% support and all membership of the bargaining unit that we want to seek recognition for.
9:28
And at that point, if the employer refuses, it will simply go to a ballot of that bargaining unit and a simple majority of those who decide to vote would suffice.
9:40
So if your bargaining unit is 100 people, if the union has got 11 members, then it can apply for recognition under the new simplified procedure.
9:48
And at that point then, if only 30 people out of the 100 vote in the recognition ballot and 16 of them vote for recognition, you have got a recognition under that new arrangement.
10:00
So it significantly simplifies and makes the task of recognition a lot easier for the trade union under the new procedure, which will come in, as I said, in April of next year.
10:13
Second one I just want to talk about is rights of trade unions to access workplaces.
10:18
Now the consultation for this has already been published.
10:20
It was published on the 23rd of This is expected to become law in October next year, October 2026.
10:30
So what's the current position?
10:32
Well, there's no legal rights of access and any access to trade unions, there's no legal rights of access and any access is dependent upon voluntary arrangements between the trade union and the employer.
10:45
The employer is under no obligation to grant access to a trade union.
10:49
What will change under the Employment Rights Bill?
10:51
trade unions will gain a new independent statutory right to request access to workplaces for the purposes of recruitment, organizing and collective bargaining.
11:04
Now that includes both physical access they can turn that and say can we take over part of your canteen or a meeting room because we want to meet with people and it will also include digital access so they will be entitled to say, well, we want to communicate.
11:18
We want these communications part of, or you want you to put this on your intranet, or emails and what have you.
11:26
So physical and digital access, that right to that will extend both.
11:32
And employers must engage with such requests.
11:36
You simply can't put your head in the sand and say, no, thank you, we just don't want to be, we're not interested, but you can at the moment, but as of next October, you won't be able to.
11:45
So, there will be, and in the consultation, it sets out how the unions request access and how employers must respond.
11:54
Unions will submit a written request detailing the purpose, the type of access, the worker group, the bargaining unit for which it wants access.
12:03
Employers will then have five working days to respond, and if no agreement can be reached as to access, the matter will be referred to the central arbitration committee, which effectively will adjudicate between disputes between employers and unions regarding those rights of access.
12:22
The CAC, the Central Arbitration Committee, can enforce access agreements and can issue fines for non-compliance.
12:29
And again, it will be based on principles making sure that obviously access doesn't unreasonably interfere with business operations, but access is paramount and required. So those are the sort of things to think about.
12:42
So that is going to happen, that right of access physically and digitally will be in place by next October.
12:49
And the final one I wanted to just talk about was the statement of trade union rights.
12:53
Again, the consultation was issued on the 23rd of October, will close on the 18th of December.
12:59
Again, this is expected to come more next October.
13:03
So at the moment, what's the current position?
13:05
Well, employers are under no legal obligation to inform workers of their right to join a trade union. Don't have to say anything about that.
13:12
But the changes under the Employment Rights Bill employers will again be under a new legal duty to inform workers of their right to join a trade union and this can be done obviously for new employees that could be done via the written statement but provided at the start of employment so that would accompany the the particulars of employment that is required when you take on any new employees.
13:36
Now in terms of the proposed contents of the statement what the government is saying is the statement itself must give a brief overview of trade union functions, what they do, the benefits they offer, and a summary of the statutory rights related to trade union membership and also a list of recognised trade unions and perhaps a link to the government website for further information.
13:58
So in other words, it's not just you have the right to join a trade union full stop, you're going to have to give further information details about the benefits of joining a trade union and the the statutory rights that go with that.
14:12
So you can see with the consultation the government is going further than just a pure mere statement of you have this right.
14:20
So that's going to be quite significant and again as I mentioned the statement will be delivered directly to new workers as part of their contract terms but for existing workers delivery can be direct or indirect but it's going to be the employer will need to be providing that information directly or indirectly either through the intranet or through policies demonstrating that they are complying with this request again to provide this information about the rights to join a trade union.
14:52
The frequency of that is going to probably be annual so it's not something you can do and then forget.
14:58
You're going to have to annually remind people of their right to join a trade union, providing the statements of the benefits, etc.
15:06
So these are some significant changes and I think what does this mean for employers in terms of what is now going to change, as I said, in April next year and then in October next year.
15:18
I mean, to be clear, these reforms represents a deliberate shift in power towards organised labour.
15:25
That is the purpose of these reforms.
15:28
That's not the, you know, that's the intention.
15:31
So employers need to be prepared to face, firstly, increased union activity and presence, both on-site and virtually.
15:40
So that is something that's going to happen.
15:42
Secondly, there is going to be greater scrutiny for employers as to how they respond to union recognition, which will be simplified.
15:50
and how they respond to access requests.
15:53
So again, so greater scrutiny, increased activity, and also increased potential liability for failing to comply with either access or information rights, potential fines, et cetera, et cetera.
16:08
So that is going to change.
16:09
There are, as I said, this is significant change because, and it is, that deliberate shift in promoting organized labor as part of employee relations.
16:21
So that's a Whistlestop tour and I'll hand over to Tanya now to talk a bit more about that.
16:28
Thank you.
16:28
That was a very comprehensive Whistlestop tour, I have to say, it was very helpful.
16:32
Thank you.
16:33
I think an interesting part of all of this is that, of course, it's going to affect many more of our businesses as well.
16:42
So, you know, a lot of our larger members at FDF are already unionized sometimes with multiple unions and so a big part of all of this will be how they can implement these changes and kind of keep the power structure, I suppose, a little bit weighted still in our favor as a sector and have those great relationships with their union reps and make sure that those employee relationships continue and just develop and improve even more.
17:12
for our medium-sized businesses that are not unionized, I think this is going to potentially be quite a large change as suddenly now they may be forced into more open relationships with unions that they may have been able to head off at the pass for quite a while.
17:31
But I think there's a lot of work for our medium-sized members to start thinking about how they want to start working with unions and their workforce and make sure that they really have considered the best way to approach this and that they're opening up to have some really positive relationships with the unions because it's going to be happening one way or the other, I think.
17:55
It is also worth, these are just, there's a lot of changes within the industrial relations work, but there is also massive changes throughout the entire employment rights bill that's probably worth highlighting that there's another know 37 or so measures that we're expecting in the bill some of which may help employee relationships more broadly so but there are a lot of issues that that businesses are going to have to be keeping tabs on over the over the coming two years and making sure that they're implementing it all and not getting behind so I think that's that's probably probably a good enough start as everyone's chewing on on all the detail that Richard just shared because there a lot in there. It's very useful. Thank you, Tonya.
18:38
And then just on that, I mean, with regards to all the new changes that are coming, obviously, as Richard said, you know, this is very much about empowering trade unions, you know, giving them more power, etc.
18:49
Do we have a view or do we have any thoughts around what we think the unions are going to do with this?
18:57
Well, what it represents is a huge expansion of legal rights for trade unions.
19:04
The extent of the impact will depend on where the trade unions have sufficient officials to take advantage of these new rights.
19:13
I think there's a resource issue.
19:15
Each trade unions, they have obviously local officials, area officials, regional officials, but there's ultimately a resource matter there.
19:25
Do they have sufficient officials to take advantage of that?
19:28
And also as well, what is the valid proposition that they are putting to the workers?
19:33
Because one of the things that you do with trade union membership, of course, is you then have to pay your subs every month.
19:39
You know, so the trade union takes you on, but you then have to pay maybe 20 pounds or whatever it might be.
19:44
So where do they want to concentrate their resources and where do they have a really good, valid proposition that they think then is going to result in people voting for recognition and then obviously wanting to sign up and be part of the union.
20:03
One of the things unions do provide is potential legal representation should they, a union member lose their job.
20:12
So that links in as well with if we are going into, or you know, if people are concerned more about job stability and job security that clang quite often mean there is more flights trade unions good people they well I could do with that that's a useful insurance element for me to have so they will undoubtedly be pushing that and in areas whereby there may be redundancies or there may need to be you know some form of scaling back or what have you that could be the value proposition will protect you and afterwards trying legal support, plus then the resources.
20:51
So the unions are working this through in terms of where are their strongest areas.
20:57
It could be regional, it could be sectoral, it will differ from union to union in terms of what they are.
21:03
But each and every single one of them has got a hit list of where they feel is the best place to marshal that resource and to be able to demonstrate that value proposition to prospective union members.
21:20
Thank you very much.
21:21
Thank you.
21:21
Before we move on and just change tack, we've had a question come in, which actually really relates to what we've just been speaking about.
21:29
I just wondered if we could maybe cover that.
21:31
So the question has been put is, will a union have right to access where there is already a recognized union in place to cover the workers under a bargaining group?
21:41
Question.
21:41
The answer is no, probably not.
21:43
The way it works is this, what the central arbitration, if you don't want rights of access, then you end up, if an employer says no, you end up going to the central arbitration committee.
21:53
But the central arbitration committee is very clear.
21:56
What it does not want is fragmented union groups and unions fighting amongst each other.
22:03
That's just not conducive to a good employee relations.
22:07
So if you already have in place a union where there is rights of access and another union wants to come in and basically take over that bargaining unit, your entitles employer say no.
22:20
And if they went to the central arbitration committee, my strong, strong view would be central arbitration committee would go, no, you've already, they've already got a recognized union, go somewhere else.
22:31
So that can be quite helpful if you've already a recognised unit, particularly if you've got it for part of your workforce, but not another part of your workforce, because there's lots of employers that will recognise more than one union.
22:44
So what you could have is you've got part of your workforce with a recognition agreement, rights of access, etc.
22:49
And then another union comes along and says, well, we won't touch that, but we'll have a go at this other part.
22:55
So it's important to bear that in mind in terms of how you're approaching this.
22:59
Do you want to extend the current recognition arrangements you have part of the workforce to all of your workforce to prevent another union trying to come in and you know and get recognition in respect of the non-recognized part. Thank you Richard.
23:17
Madeleine I'm going to come to you now and obviously as we know these changes are coming so it'd be really good to get your thoughts on what employers need to be doing now to prepare to prepare for for the changes come April next year.
23:34
Thank you. Well, we've heard a lot from Richard about the legal risks.
23:37
So, as a conflict management expert, I'm now going to sort of look a little bit about what we can do to prepare ourselves for what I think everybody recognizes might be an increase in conflict in the workplace because of the reforms.
23:54
So, I'm going to look at what the risks of conflict might be, why it's important to think about it now and what employers can do to prepare for it.
24:04
I think as Richard has said, you know, this legislation is swinging reforms to the trade union legislation as it is now, and it will really focusing on collective voice for workers, which may or may not be a good thing depending on your view of it and what, you know, your industry you're in.
24:25
But if there is a stronger collective voice, there's bound to be a bigger risk of conflict because people are going to unearth discontent, they're going to start talking about it, they're going to be egged on to really focusing on the issues.
24:40
And so it's going to be crucial for employers to have the skills to really mitigate and manage that risk.
24:47
And I think that employers right now have an opportunity to choose what they I mean, we've heard from Richard that employees can either adopt recognition, either fully or partially, or can really sort of look at engaging with their employees more through sort of employee recognition, et cetera.
25:07
But all of this is going to come down to an ability of managers and leaders in your business being able to communicate and negotiate properly, to avoid contentious dispute turning into legal problems and conflict communication is a specific skill.
25:26
Leaders and managers are great communicators, but when it comes to conflict, difficult conversations, there sometimes needs to be a little bit of extra help because we're not all fantastic at it. So how can employers prepare now?
25:43
Well, as Richard said, understand legislation, understand the risks, then choose what you want to do. What's right for your business?
25:52
Is it to recognise unions or is it to try and avoid unionisation through better employee engagement?
25:59
And once you've made a choice, set a strategy, then roll that strategy out to management so that they understand what it is and why you've chosen the strategy, but also really equip them the tools of communication and negotiations so that they can embed that into the company culture with a real emphasis on making sure that the relationships either with the unions or the employees or both are really enhanced to the best they can be and also setting boundaries is really important so where there might be some breakdowns or whatever think about what those boundaries are and socialise those amongst the management community and enable them to communicate through any problems that might happen if those boundaries are crossed.
26:52
So ensuring management is skilled at communication is key to preparation, I think, because employees these days want to feel heard, they expect to be heard, and if they are heard, then it will take the risk way of getting into collective bargaining situations with unions.
27:11
At Integrity, we deal with these sort of issues with a three pillar framework, which neatly, I think, makes people think about things when they are preparing for difficult conversations.
27:22
And that is prepare, manage, cure, and prepare for conflict through communication training, manage conflict through enhance negotiation skills and cure conflict through early mediation, using independent mediation of problems when they come along before they turn into legal disputes.
27:44
So I suppose to summarise how can we prepare for the reforms to avoid conflict risk, I would say understand the legislation, have a strategy, elevate your communication and skills, practice them often, apply them consistently to avoid workplace disagreements turning into legal disputes and industrial action.
28:09
Thank you, Madeline.
28:11
Lisa, just looking at you now, if possible, and obviously you might want to add to that initial question anyway, but just thinking about also getting a sense of the employee mood right now.
28:26
Yeah, it's a really good question and you know within MERSA we do our own research and we look at the research of other bodies as well and when MERSA went out and did some research around this several months ago the general feeling was that organisations sort of weren't really prepared, really worried, it wasn't sort of one of their main priorities.
28:54
I mean the legislation is coming we all know that it's going to sort of mark a seismic shift.
29:01
I mean, we know that some sectors maybe are more sort of, you know, maybe concerned about potentially having, you know, sort of union approaches.
29:12
Some recent research by the CIPD looked at sort of the current employer-employee relations climate, and certainly within the public sector, there was sort of more general buy-in, But I think generally speaking, even among private sector employers, where there was already a union in place, feedback was generally positive and employees and employers did see the benefits of having a union.
29:39
And I think a general point I would make is you need to lean into this, whether it is your natural sort of predisposition to be for or against this, I think you need to lean into it.
29:49
sort of my experience has taught me that you get the working environment and employee relations that you deserve, I think.
29:57
I would say you must lean into it and it's way better to be on the front foot than the back foot because if you're on the front foot it enables you to take more charge of the narrative as well.
30:09
You don't want to find yourself on the back foot and having to react and respond to things as they are happening to you.
30:16
And I think as well the three watchwords I say here, are communication, engagement and trust.
30:24
And if you have those, you are, you know, putting yourself a good way forward to having that, you know, more positive employer-employee relations environment.
30:36
I mean, you know, sort of moving on from that, a lot of the work that Mercer does is around employee voice and, you know, as I say, whether you are predisposed sort of accepting of, you know, if you get an approach and then you find yourself that you are recognising a trade union.
30:53
I mean, I think some practical things and, you know, Richard and Madeleine have already touched on this.
30:58
You need to think about assigning responsibility to someone in your organisation, whether it's HR, whether it's legal to look at what's happening with the consultations, Richard referred to, one that closes in December, secondary legislation that could be introduced as well. So assigning roles and responsibilities actually is such a key thing.
31:20
Also in terms of, well, are we likely to get an approach?
31:24
So looking at indicators like sickness, absenteeism, turnover rates as well, information feedback that you get from annual employee engagement surveys and exit interviews. What is that telling you?
31:37
Are you collecting data and how are you using it?
31:41
But I think in terms of the employee listening and employee voice, in terms of things that organisations can do if they do get an approach and if they are recognising trade unions as a result of the legislation, you want to think really about being able to develop a holistic employee voice that includes both more individual and collective approaches as well. And they can work side by side as well.
32:07
So you're thinking potentially about multiple and complementary, you know, sort of structures and processes that you have in place.
32:15
I mean, as Richard said, employees are going to now have a legal duty to inform employees of their rights to join a trade union.
32:24
But I think sort of leading on from that in terms of your, you know, policies, you'll need to look at your policies, well, number one, to make sure their compliance, but also to make sure that employees do understand about, you know, sort of what the new legislation means, and I think as well being able to train, educate, upskill managers so that they understand what the impact of the legislation is going to be, and also that they have a role themselves and can promote effective employee voice as well, and I think it goes back to that being more on the front foot so that you're not reacting and having to respond to things as they do happen to you.
33:06
I think you need to make sure as an organisation that if you are getting, you know, sort of data from your employee engagement surveys, exit interviews, you know, little pulse employee surveys that you might be doing throughout the year, what are you doing with the data, are you evaluating it, and how do you know that the in place are effective, because you might think you're doing the right things, but actually how do you know and how do you measure it? So I think that's really important as well.
33:35
And the only other thing I would say as well, when it comes to employee voice, we know the things that really matter to employees. One is pay and fair pay, certainly.
33:45
And I mean, I know other master colleagues have spoken about this before, that I think fair pay now, sort of in some recent research we've done comes only second to job security in terms of what's important for employees.
33:58
So knowing that they are paid fairly is really important.
34:01
And then if you're getting into sort of new areas of having to negotiate pay with trade unions, you really have to be prepared for that, you know, and make sure that you have data, that your, you know, sort of consultation and negotiation skills are up to, you know, up to speed.
34:17
And obviously, Madeleine and her colleagues can support with that as well.
34:23
Employees want to feel recognized and valued and they want to feel supported and looked after as well in terms of physical, mental, financial wellbeing.
34:33
So these are all really important things that I think employers have to think about in the round.
34:41
And these will be things that they will be discussing with trade unions.
34:46
So get your data in good shape, assign roles and responsibilities, think about what you're communicating and how it's landing with employees, how you are evaluating it, and how you're acting on it.
34:58
So, yeah, those are some of the main points I'd make on that question. Thank you. Okay, thank you.
35:07
Tonya, Richard, did either of you want to expand or contribute to that?
35:12
I think, obviously, Lisa, thank you for information you've given us there, I think, specifically from a food and drink perspective, I think, with regards to what employers might be able to do to improve the individual employee relationships. Tanya, I don't know if that's something you can contribute to.
35:30
I think, you know, our sector, you know, we work very hard to be good employers, and I think there's already a lot that our members are doing to be good employers, from an individual basis as well.
35:45
So I think continuing to look at that work that is being done, there's a lot within this bill around family-friendly rights and other things that will kind of help support those relationships that won't necessarily have the same financial impact as some of other measures in the bill, including like day one rights and some other things.
36:06
So there's a lot within the bill, but also that our members are already doing, I think, to kind of continue building those relationships.
36:13
And as a side note, so I know there's been a lot of conversation around, you know, companies who really need to engage in the details of the bill, you know, FDF does have a working group for our members on specifically working on the employment rights bill, so there's one good way of engaging in that detail is to join that group if you're not already on it and, you know, we're responding to all the consultations, so that's another good opportunity.
36:39
I meet regularly with with dbt and the officials across dbt to hear the latest of what's going on so there's lots of ways of helping to to navigate these changes and and try and you know influence as best we can some of the decisions before they're they're locked into legislation so yes thank you tonya um obviously there's a lot of um options available to employees right now and I appreciate we've spoken a lot about getting engaged and building trust, et cetera.
37:11
With regards to the different options for employers, Lisa, Richard, I wonder if that's something you can just build on and give a bit of context here, if possible.
37:22
Certainly, I would underline everything that's been said about being proactive, about being proactive in anticipation of this increased role of rights, what have you.
37:33
I think Tanya's absolutely right as well.
37:35
There's lots of things that have been done that are really, really good, you know, and re-emphasizing those, re-pointing these out to people so, you know, human nature, you kind of bank stuff that you've got, and then you sort of, you know, you kind of expect more and more, but certainly being proactive.
37:52
I mean, one other element is, there's what's known as the information and consultation of employees regulations.
37:58
Now, this has been in place for over 20 years, but what it is is effectively a process by which an employer that doesn't recognize a union can enter into a formal information consultation arrangement with the workforce directly.
38:17
And again, that's something that doesn't necessarily mean that a union can't apply for recognition.
38:22
But what it does mean is you've already got in place information consultation arrangements, collective employee relations overall strategy and approach to that.
38:33
And what that tends to mean is if the workforce does feel engaged with, and listened to, and empowered via that forum, then if a union comes along and knocks on the door, then quite often it's a, well, actually what we've got here is working, a lot of businesses have that.
38:52
Marks and Spencer's used to have all those business information groups, bigs, so there's lots of ways in which employers can look at this and proactively work out what they want do and, crucially, remind employees of the benefits and everything that they get.
39:09
But it keeps coming back to having that proactive approach to this and not being reactive, because if you're reactive, then it's likely the union will set the agenda for what then happens as opposed to really thinking this through.
39:24
So if people are kind of thinking, well, are the legislations not in place yet?
39:29
well, 2026 is not far away and that's the point.
39:33
So it's time to start being proactive about these things. That would be my advice. Thank you, Richard.
39:40
And just to add to that as well, and one thing that I hadn't mentioned that I think it's important as well, if you might have in your organisation a non-union representative body as well.
39:52
I mean, you may or you may not.
39:53
And if you do, it's kind of, well, how can you get that sort of body to alongside a union organisation as well.
40:02
I think that's going to be really important because each has a valuable role to play and again it just really helps to create a culture and we keep going back to it engagement, trust, communication and you know it is holistic obviously the focus of this panel session is to talk about the trade union rights but it's not done in isolation is you know, obviously there are many more provisions within the bill and Tanya referred to them.
40:30
And, you know, if employees feel that they are being listened to, if their concerns are being are taken on board and, you know, they feel that there are information and consultation processes in place and employees understand how it works.
40:48
Because, I mean, let's be honest as well, we can point to organisations where there are unions there and the relations are not always positive.
40:57
So you want to try and be able to create that environment where you do have a positive relationship.
41:06
I think from my own personal perspective, an experience actually having people that do challenge you, so if you are an employer and you've got union representatives that are challenging you and making you potentially think about things in a slightly different way. I think that makes you better because we all want to be, we all need to be challenged.
41:26
It might make us feel uncomfortable, but I think we all do need to be challenged so we can think in a different way, get different perspectives.
41:34
And I think if you do that, again, you will sort of really put yourself on the front foot, be able to take a little bit more control of the narrative, and, you know, sort of, again, going back to it, communication, engagement, trust, those things are important, and if you can sort of build that kind of working environment, it's really, really going to help you, I think. Yes, thank you.
42:01
Just opening up to all of you now, and really for one of the final points before we open up the poll and look at any other questions that have come in from the attendees, but what, I mean obviously there's a lot to be spoken about here, but what do we think the long-term implications of the legislation will be?
42:18
I don't know who'd like to kick that off, bit open to suggestions.
42:23
Well, I can kick it off.
42:25
So I think all indications are that there'll be an increase in unionisation through the legislation, as we've heard today.
42:32
And whatever party wins the next election, these swindling reforms to workers' rights are likely to prevail for some years yet.
42:40
So getting your house in order now to prevent avoidable conflict, as far as I'm concerned, because I'm talking about conflict resolution in the future, is essential.
42:50
And this can be done through enhancing your communication skills, making sure you negotiate properly, making sure you retain those all-important relationships, and fundamentally making sure that you're on top of any disagreement so that it doesn't turn into a legal conflict or any sort of industrial action.
43:10
And that's what I think the long-term implications will be. Get your house in order. They're going to be around for a while, I think.
43:23
I think I agree with Madeleine.
43:27
I think there is going to be a lot of changes and beyond the industrial piece that companies are going to have to think about for a very intense period of kind of the next two years as all of this starts to come into force.
43:44
And so I think the more that can do now to get on the front foot on all of this, it will then start to become, you know, everyday activity and I think in the long run it will have a good effect on employee relationships, but the more that can be done now to really make sure that these positive relationships are set will just help and stand companies in good stead.
44:10
And just adding to what Tanya and Madeleine said, one of the things that I've been sort of observing with interest and sort of around all the statistics terms of, if you look at demographics of union membership and sort of what we've seen rise and what we've seen decline in the last few years, male membership has gone down, female membership has gone up.
44:30
So, and traditionally, older workers have tended to be, you know, more likely to be a trade union member.
44:38
So, I think it's going to be very, very interesting to see how that shift changes.
44:43
I mean, I would suggest that maybe more females have joined unions because of maybe concerns around pay, flexible working, employee rights potentially.
44:52
And I think with some of the government initiatives to, you know, sort of around flexible working as well, perhaps getting people back into work.
45:00
And there was a report out last week by Sir Charlie Mayfield talking about this, people, an increasing number of people with it needs not in education, employment or training, trying to get more people with work limiting health conditions back into the workforce.
45:17
We've got the ethnicity and disability, you know, sort of bill in the background as well.
45:23
And I think I was reading something yesterday, actually people with disabilities as well in the workplace are more likely to join unions.
45:30
So I think it's going to be really interesting to sort of note the shifting demographics and how that changes.
45:36
So traditionally where maybe older workers had joined unions, actually, are we going to see an upswing in more younger workers joining unions as well?
45:44
So that's something I'm going to be really interested to see because you can't just sort of look at this, I think, within the context of, you know, the strengthening trade union legislation.
45:53
I think there are also other tailwinds as well that are sort of going to impact on this.
45:58
So those are some of the things that I'm sort of going to be observing closely, I think, over the next couple of years.
46:03
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, thank you.
46:10
What we're going to do now before we open up to Q &A, and there are some questions in there, so thank you for people who have submitted.
46:15
Please do submit some now whilst you have a few more minutes.
46:18
What we're going to do is we're going to load the poll questions now. And as I said, your participation would be really welcome.
46:24
So Luke, if we could have the first poll, that'd be great. Thank you very much.
46:28
So this question here is, how familiar are you with the provisions on the trade union reform?
46:33
and then you have four answers to select from.
46:37
So very familiar, somewhat familiar, a little familiar or not at all familiar.
46:43
We're going to leave this up for a few seconds now, so please submit your answers. Okay, good spread of answers there. Thank you for those that submitted.
47:07
Second question is how confident are you in managing these legislative changes?
47:13
And again, four options for you to select from, very confident, somewhat confident, a little confident or not at all.
47:38
Final question for us is, how do you feel this session has improved your understanding of the coming changes?
47:45
Again, four options for you, much stronger understanding, somewhat improved understanding, no change in understanding or more information. Good to see.
48:17
Great, so we're just going a few minutes now just going through some of the other questions that were submitted.
48:23
So the first question we're going to go to is please could you share your expectations of how the digital access arrangements could work in practice i.e.
48:34
the use of employee intranets slash email systems etc. Yes that's a good question.
48:44
I mean whether or not I think what will if you have an intranet the union will be entitled to have maybe a space on that intranet, so there will be something whereby there will be, so physical access straightforward, they're entitled to come in, put their banners up, you need to give them a room, all that.
49:01
I think it's kind of a similar process there.
49:04
But for example, so on the intranet they have a space, if you've got employees that have work emails, then potentially the union will have access to engaging with those employees, because of course it's worth remembering that rights to be accompanied at a disciplinary or grievance hearing by a trade union official have been in for 20 years.
49:26
So the union has always had a right to attend, but it's been in the context of an individual situation whereby they're accompanying someone at a disciplinary or grievance.
49:37
So I think that will expand and those types of things will be there.
49:40
And then maybe there would be minutes of meetings with the union and the employer on the intranet, that type of thing made available.
49:52
Bear in mind, it's for organising, it's not for organising industrial action, that's specifically excluded, it is for meeting with employees, communicating, collective bargaining, so all that stuff.
50:06
So the union would be entitled though to make representations or put information on there about we'd like employees to feed back to us because we're going into a meeting with the employer in the next couple of weeks.
50:20
That type of thing, intranet access will be definitely, I think, something that will happen.
50:27
Fabulous, thank you, Richard.
50:29
Tanya, did you want to?
50:31
Yeah, in recent discussions with DVT officials on this topic and kind of the general communications, there has been some pushback the business community about, you know, am I expected to, you know, share all of my employees' emails and also, you know, if I have, you know, a post-drop on a bulletin, am I then still also expected to have it in the handbook and send an email every year to all employees?
50:58
And I think there is a little bit to play for in terms of exactly how extensive that communication will to be.
51:05
So, you know, hopefully we can manage that a little bit so it just doesn't become open play, but we will have to see what comes out of that unless Richard disagrees.
51:17
The issue, of course, is that the process will be if employer and union then fall out with each other over access, then you go to the central arbitration committee.
51:27
So there needs to be that a pragmatic approach to this without, you know, but if the employer feels that the union is asking for too much, it is every right to say no, but then the union has every right to say, well, we'll see what the central arbitration committee does.
51:43
And it becomes a little bit of a recipe then for entrenched relations.
51:49
So it's absolutely, there has to be a line drawn somewhere, but you know, it's worth being pragmatic about how that's going to but with a view to, we've got to manage this relationship going forward.
52:00
And the last thing we want to be doing is I can be invited lawyers at the central arbitration committee and then having to come home again.
52:08
And there is a risk that the central arbitration committee could end up being very overwhelmed in line with employment tribunals and everything else.
52:15
So there is, you know, keeping that to a minimum and continuing those good employee relationships and union relationships, I think will be very important.
52:25
Happy to say.
52:26
It's going to be a challenge.
52:27
There's no question about that.
52:29
I think so.
52:32
The next question, we've only got two more questions, so we'll try and get both these answered before we wrap.
52:40
Our business has both union-grade and management-grade employees.
52:45
Can management-grade employees join a union, and if so, can the union represent both groups?
52:52
Yes and yes, everyone is entitled to join a union and it may be that that's the correct union for them and the union may well say, well, we're already recognized for union-grade employees and we now want to represent the management grade.
53:11
Or it could be, and this quite often happens in the public sector, particularly the civil service for example, you have the PCS will represent certain grades of civil servants and then you have the FDA which represents different grades of civil servants.
53:23
So that's not unusual for two unions to represent potential different grades dependent upon how your organisation is structured but also it's perfectly provisible for one union to represent all as well.
53:39
I think that probably feeds into the next question somewhat and that is where a member has one site that has a collective bargaining agreement and one site with no recognised union What would your advice be?
53:55
Probably to start finding out whether or not that union has aspirations for collective bargaining on that other site as well.
54:04
I mean, you know, collective bargaining agreements are absolutely fine to be site specific, but where an, but obviously where an employer has recognized a union for one site, the question then becomes, well, for a union's perspective, well, why aren't we being recognized on this other site?
54:22
And it may be, by the way, that the workforce doesn't want that.
54:25
That's just, oh, that's just not something whereby they're getting the 10% pickup that they need in order to start.
54:34
But my advice will always be, is again, be proactive.
54:38
Look at that other site, anticipate what is likely to be the case.
54:43
Is it the case that you think there may be an application for recognition, or obviously rights of access, etc.
54:49
Or is it the case that you've already got in place a partnership forum with those employees on that site, because you've put in place an information and consultation arrangement with employees that employees are broadly happy with. So does that just need to be reviewed and maybe enhanced?
55:08
But the key thing is, look what the difference is, the reasons for the difference and where you want to go as an organisation and plan out a strategy for proactively dealing with that. And that would be my advice.
55:26
Thank you very much.
55:27
There's one final question and it is, we have seen that the ACAS, the ACAS, has had to scale up resource to manage a volume of ET claims.
55:39
Is there a view of whether the CAC is capable of managing the volume of requests of it?
55:47
Yes, I think the Central Arbitration Committee is pretty efficient.
55:53
They're made up of quite often people from trade union movement, business, but also former high court judges quite often.
56:02
They move through these cases pretty quickly.
56:06
So ACAS is just overwhelmed at the moment.
56:08
It's slightly different.
56:09
ACAS with early conciliation and the work that they need to do, and once day one rights come in, I mean, it's just going to be even worse on that sort of thing.
56:20
But you know, the one you've got, you know, a government administrative, you know, ACAS just being overwhelmed.
56:27
The other one, they, you know, cases have to be brought to the Central Arbitration Committee.
56:31
They've got legal officers that look through those.
56:34
All my experience at the Central Arbitration Committee, and I've been there quite a few in my career, it's run really efficiently.
56:42
So they may well add extra resource, but I don't anticipate there being the sort of bottleneck, which there clearly is with ACAS and the early conciliation process at the moment.
56:54
I've also heard from DBT that they're looking to create kind of models and kind of, so that not every claim will have to go through a panel, which is the current structure, so they will be in the structure.
57:06
They will have legal officers underneath the central arbitration committee, so a bit like the Employment Appeal Tribunal, they have legal officers underneath that who sift through these and then go no, yes, no, you know, so and then, so that process is pretty efficient, whereas of course ACAS, you just have to initiate ACAS early conciliation, there's no sift process, everybody goes through that process, so it's a different sort of process.
57:34
Perfect. Thank you very much. So we're literally at time now. So I think we'll wrap there.
57:42
From our side, it's been an absolute pleasure hosting you for today.
57:47
Thank you for taking the time and for the participation. It's been great. Thank you to all of our expert panel.
57:54
Really appreciate the discussion that we've had today and hopefully it's proved to be useful and informative for everybody that's been in attendance.
58:01
We will be sending out additional material to guide your internal discussions and please do reach out to us if you have any questions you want to follow up with or anything you want to discuss in more detail.
58:14
All right so have a good rest of the day and it's goodbye from us we look forward to seeing Thank you.
58:21
Thank you.
58:21
Goodbye.
